Niruma : What Deepakbhai mainly talked about was'I' and 'My'. The separation between these two should be determined. 'Who am I' should be established. In 'Real' terms, you should find out 'Who am I'. We have a lot but we don't have the knowledge of 'who am I'. Through words, you've heard or have read that 'I am Soul', or this or that. After reading the 'Gita', the 'Vedas', the 'Upanishads' or the 'Agamas' we may have some knowledge that 'Soul', 'I am a Soul, separate from this body', I'm this or that but you have yet to experience this. That has yet to be known. However many times we read or hear about this, we feel it but afterwards, nothing afterwards. Afterwards everything is forgotten. Afterwards the body that is given to us, the name that is given to us, that is what we believe to be 'I'. However, in actuality that belief of 'Who am I' doesn't remain with us, you have to understand that. You have to experience that really, 'who Am I'. We know everything; however, this is left. You'll not find this experience in a book or speech anywhere. This experience will only come when we personally experience it firsthand until then how will we know. Furthermore, this experience can only be obtained from an experienced person. Only a lit oil lamp can only light another. No matter how much you try to describe it but you can't light an oil lamp like this. Describing will only give you an outline but not the light! Hence, all scriptures, all words, have their own limitations. It'll give an outline but not the light. What the oil lamp looks like, how much light it give off, it's like this, it's like that; everything is described but you won't get the light. This light will only come when our oil lamp' is lit. Furthermore, to light this oil lamp you need another lit one. That's a law, no matter how intelligent the father is, even if he has a PhD, he still has to send his children to learn at school - why Can't you teach them yourself He will say 'No'. This is because although he knows everything, he doesn't have the technique of teaching. That is why they have to be placed in school. Otherwise, there wouldn't be any need for schools and colleges, because everyone would teach one another.

Likewise, that is the same for 'Spirituality'. Therefore whenever we have confusing questions, what we want to achieve all that by clearing your doubts, it is possible to achieve this; Concerning spirituality, concerning relative life, concerning any religion. we view religion and 'Spirituality' in different ways. Religion is one thing and 'Spirituality' is another thing. There are all different types of religions in the world. What all religions teach is steer us from bad deeds towards good deeds. They teach us the way from unrighteousness to the pathway of righteousness. That is what is called religion. Then Jain religion, 'Vaishnav' religion, 'Shiva' religion, Parsi religion, Christianity, etc. There are many different types of religions. Whereas spirituality means to experience and become one with One's own 'Soul', this is not all there. There are no dealings with good and bad deeds, as it goes further than unrighteousness and righteousness, straight into realizing and knowing the 'Pure Soul', the realization of both the 'Eternal Element' and the worldly reality, to recognize, to understand and to know it in the exact sense is what is called 'Spirituality'. No founders of 'Spirituality' Krishna Bhagwan, Ram Bhagwan, Shiva Bhagwan, Mahavir Bhagwan had any religion nor did they give any religion. All of these had 'Spirituality', and that was only what they gave to everyone. Later on, under their names and their teachings, these religions or sects were founded; a lot happened, for the people following. However, the founders' basic teachings were very different. One has to recognize, understand and realize these basic teachings. Actually, what did Krishna, Ram and Mahavir Bhagwan really achieve? Until we ourselves achieve that, all these teachings remain unfulfilled. Our life remains unfulfilled. You have to totally understand all of this, in order to realize it fully. This entire struggle is for this purpose only. We will always come across religion, preachers and we also become religious, but we seldom come across 'Spirituality'.

We rarely obtain knowledge about our own 'Soul' because you require a specialist for this; you need an Avatar (self-realized person), who is known as an 'Atma Gnani'. This is achieved only in the presence of such a person. Sometimes, whilst in search for this, if at some point you find a link to this then your work is done. For endless lives, this is the only thing that remains to be fulfilled. In human life, if this link is found then your work is done that, 'who am I really ', 'what is my real form',' What am I',' How am I' Everyone knows that 'I am' but they don't know 'who I am' or 'what I am', that is what we need to realize In reality, 'what am I like', 'What am I', 'What I'm doing and what I'm not doing'. This needs to be experienced in your life. For that, get all your confusions cleared up, in order to prepare your foundations, accordingly. Ask whatever questions you may have, because once answered, you will be able to progress further. You have heard plenty of lectures; however, with real 'Spirituality' it is not through lectures but through 'questions and answers', the solutions to our problems. What is meant by lecture? (Le) Take (Kacharo) garbage. It's like giving our garbage to you. Isn't that what all professors do? Don't they memorize at home then they go say what they've memorized. Instead of this, you should say that? I would rather stay home and read it myself'. That is why we specially invite everyone for their questions, so they are solved. One person's question will give solutions to many people; it's like one's question and many peoples satisfaction.

Questioner : Can't you reach the 'Soul' through religion?

Niruma : No. Religion won't let you to reach the 'Soul'. Religion will only lead you from the unrighteous towards the righteous. It'll lead to virtuousness. A person's nature will be one of three qualities, these are wild (Tamo-goon), Mild (Rajo-goon) and Virtuous (Satva-goon). Religion will not take you beyond a person's nature; it will however guide your nature from wild (Tamo-goon) or mild (Rajo-goon) toward the virtuous (Satva-goon). Whereas 'Spirituality' and 'Knowledge of the Soul' goes beyond the three qualities of a person's nature. That is why Lord Krishna said in the Gita ?Hey Arjuna! The Vedas are tri-natured. They will increase these three qualities. The 'Soul' goes beyond this. These are the qualities of a person's nature. ' That is why they will take a person's nature to the top. Religion will take you very high up in virtuous qualities or virtuousness, but ultimately you will have to realize the 'Soul', and for that, you will have to seek out a self-realized person (Atma Gnani). Whatever pathway you choose, whatever means you undertake, nevertheless this point will come, only then will you be able to reach the 'Soul'. Both railway lines are different. The line that leads to realization of the 'Soul' is different from the line of religion. In religion, you have to do all these rituals, holy rituals do focusing and concentration, meditation, do holy chanting, do penance, do meditation, do holy readings, do prayers, light an oil lamp, do 'Aarti'; everything needs to be done. This is not wrong; they are all holy and sacred rituals. With this, you bind merit karma. Whereas, in the 'Soul', there is no question about doing; however achieving the 'non-doer' stage is required; achieving complete 'non-doership' is required. Now this stage cannot be attained just like that, so by doing something how can we achieve the 'non-doer' stage. Therefore, that is where the contradiction arises. Do you understand? It is here that the Avatars (self-realized people) show you the way. They say you do not need to do anything, like a child that goes to kindergarten; does he need to do anything there? The teacher does everything for him. Similarly, you also do not need to do anything nor worry at all. Like the way the child is taught to repeat the numbers 1, 2,.... so he learns it by repetition. No matter how much he scribbles at home, he'll never learn the numbers 1,2,... but by the teacher's repeated efforts, he will learn it, One is one and two is two is learnt by repeatedly saying it. This is just like that. You have not found any master to show you that you are a pure soul. You have not found anyone to make you repeat that. Everyone says do this and do that, pray to god, some say pray to Ram, some say to Krishna, some say to Mahavir, some say to goddesses, some say to this one, some say to Hanuman.

Everyone has shown to do all this, but no one has told you what exactly Ram attained, or what Mahavir attained, or what Krishna attained, or what Arjuna attained from Krishna. No one has really shown you how to actually attain that. Do you understand? Religion only brings you to this point. People will show you everything about Krishna, Ram, whichever God, religion or any religion's God. Everything about that God the devotion, the service, the rituals, the chanting, the penance and all other regulations. However, no one will be able to show you what exactly Krishna achieved or what he made Arjuna achieve. For example, they cannot show you that thereafter Spirituality' takes you there. Do you understand? They will show you everything about Shiva Bhagwan chant' Om Namah Shivay, Om Namah Shivay', doing the rituals, put 'billipatra' leaf on the idol, and ceremonially bath the idol. One starts with Om Namah Shivay, I bow to Shiva but ultimately fails to come to 'Shivoham', I am Shiva. People say this. I have heard several times in the Shiva Temple, 'Om Namah Shivay, Om Namah Shivay' and at the same time 'Nijanand Roopam Shivoham Shivoham'. They say that too. Hey! You cannot say both simultaneously. They contradict one another. Do you understand that? Om Namah Shivay means I bow to Shiva; on the other hand they say Shivoham meaning I am Shiva that's where the contradiction arises On one hand, people say 'I bow to Krishna' while on the other 'I am Brahma (Aham Brahmashtami)'; this also is contradictory, so there is a mixture of both. Spirituality and religion have been mixed. Only when you come into spirituality can you say I am Shiva, or I am Brahma I am pure soul. Until then, one has to keep on doing all of this. Keep both separate. Proceed according to your standard until you experience your own soul, until then whatever you say - 'Om Namah Shivay', 'Shree Krishna Sharanam mama', 'Ram, Ram' it is OK. Progress accordingly.

In religion, there is a religious pathway; while spirituality means you are one with your own 'Soul'. Take the form of your 'Soul' When you are one with your soul, from then on you realize that 'I am Shiva, I am Krishna, I am Ram'. The form that they were, I am now. There remain no differences anymore between 'You' and 'I'. There no longer remains the distinction of you being God and I your devotee. 'You' and 'I' are one. We are in the form of 'Soul' and we are one. From 'You' are the One, You' are the One' to 'I' am the One, 'I' am the one', that is the ultimate understanding. It is there, it is all there in our scriptures, but it has become so mixed up, hence people are doing both things together. People do this and people do that. Therefore, the distinction is lost; hence, neither pathway is fulfilled. What happens when these women make rice and then add Daal and Kadhi too? It becomes mixed up, likewise religion and spirituality has been mixed up, you do not get the taste of the soul nor do you get the taste of religion. That clarity is just not there. The clarity of understanding is just not there. Until you get the clarity, it does not matter what you do, do it with clear understanding. Then you will get the results you desire. Who has such clarity? The answer is - one who himself is clear, one who knows the distinction, demarcation, separation - that this is about the 'Soul' and all the rest is not. Wherever there is any 'doer-ship' there is nothing of the 'Soul'. Doing good is religion and doing bad goes against religion, one of the two will always happen. In everyone's life, on a given day, how much good can one do? I have seen this in my own home; I have seen this when I was young. My mother worshipped Krishna for half an hour. She would worship and chant his name for half an hour. When I was very young I had this thought that, my mother does this for half an hour but what about the remaining twenty-three and a half hours. She makes so many blunders.

Everywhere it is the same, whether you worship Krishna, Ram, or whoever, the remainder of the day there is no remembrance of Krishna or Ram, or any of their principles, nor their life history. The whole day they chant Ram, but when there are conflicts between brothers, they do not remember Ram Laxman. Whenever there are problems between husband and wife, they forget about Sita Ram. Therefore, it only remains in words and not in experience, that blunder is being made. But what does spirituality say You may do as much you like but it is in your life it may bring some transformation to your life, some inner change. This will give the results. You do all the other things, but they do not give results. These children go to school; do they not bring their results? Do parents ask or not? Therefore, why not apply it here? In religion, results are not required, yet, you keep doing it, but how much change has it brought in us? How much have you achieved? What are you looking for in the result, how much have our anger, pride, worldly delusion, greed, attachment and contempt, decreased. By how much has your inner peace increased? By how much have your tension and worries decreased? By how much has, 'mine and yours', conflicts and animosity towards one another decreased. How much resolution has come to the conflicts between mother-in-law, wife, sister-in-law; wife and husband, wife and children, should not there be some kind of result. That is what we say. Become one with your soul, which should have an impact on your life. Even a 5% impact. We are not saying you need to have a 100% change. Start with one or two percent and slowly as you proceed on you will progress further. However, nothing will change it will be just be the same (externally).